WHEN IS A PALESTINIAN NOT AN ARAB?

The following is an observation from a trip to the northern part of Israel...

Conversation overheard in a hotel in Israel....
"Don't get them confused..... Palestinians are not Arabs! Arabs live in Arab countries like Egypt, Jordan and Syria.... Palestinians live in Palestine, therefore they are not Arabs. Arabs want peace with Israel, Palestinians do not. Arabs that live in Israel are not Palestinians, they are Arabs....."
Those are the words of a group leader of an Evangelical group that is visiting Israel. He was discussing the situation in Israel/Palestine to his group after a visit to the Palestinian city of Jericho.
I spoke to a number of these visitors that were absolutely shocked by the situation in the Occupied Territories. They were amazed at the difference of living conditions on the 'other side' of the wall. I was able to convey the message to them that the poverty that exists there is due to the oppression suffered at the hands of the zionists. I asked them how it would be if they were not able to work, not able to send their children to school, not able to visit family members, not able to get to a hospital when necessary...none could conceive of these horrors.
My comments were met by sympathetic ears,and hopefully will serve as 'food for thought' compared to the words of the group leader.
His mission is to bring 'Christians' to Israel to literally walk in the footsteps of Jesus and get a sense of the 'gathering of the exiles' to the Promised Land which will herald in the new Messianic Era and the second coming of their Messiah.
That's all fine and dandy.... but what about the Palestinians? Do they have to be painted as the children of satan whose only purpose in life is to destroy that Jewish state? Do they have to be detached from their own people and dehumanised in such a way as to appear as a total non entity? The struggle of the Palestinian people is an integral part of the struggle for peace in this region, a goal that can only be achieved when they are recognised as a nation.
It is bad enough that the Palestinian people are denied statehood, now their very identity as Arabs is being taken away from them.
At one point in history ignorance was considered bliss... that no longer carries much weight these days. Every opportunity is available today to learn the truth about anything, anywhere.... unless you don't want to or don't want anyone else to. In that case, it is no longer ignorance, it is dishonesty and deceit.
Bottom line is this type of ignorance and hatred must be fought against at every level. One must not remain silent... the truth must be heard.
The words of the group leader can become a reality... the part about 'Palestinians live in Palestine' Palestine MUST become a reality... not an occupied nation. Palestine MUST become a state... an ARAB state.

•  The first and only time

  I recommend someone who uses improper font in every word of the body.

  by Nulwee on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:11:07 PM PDT

  •  hit and run diary?

    diarist's first attempt, and no comment history?

    are we being played here?

    by wystler on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:00:44 PM PDT

  •  that is all a matter of perspective

    depending on from where you look at the issue, Palestinians are or aren't Arabs.

    Go to Jordan, for example. Jordanians make very pointed distinctions here - it were the Palestinians  that tried to destroy the Kingdom a few decades ago, while the Arabs supported and saved it.

    Lebanese people usually don't consider themselves Arabs, too.

    by cris0000 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:18:56 PM PDT

    •  Lebanon is a Christian country also

      which has some influence on that.  But the Lebanese are descended from the Phoenicians--at least, that's how the national mythology goes, just like Syrians come from the Assyrians.  Palestinians on the other hand don't look at themselves as Phoenicians or Philistines or w/e, but as Arabs.

      by Nulwee on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:21:46 PM PDT

      •  Lebanon is a partially Christian country.

        Some Lebanese are Sunni Muslims, some Shia Muslims, some Druzes iirc. Also iirc, while the Christians are a sizable and influential group, they are not a majority. Not sure anyone else is either.

        by Ahianne on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:04:38 PM PDT

        •  India has more Muslims than almost any country

          in the world, it's still a Hindu country.
          Lebanon was created by the French for Maronites to control the coast, as opposed to almost totally Muslim Syria.

          I realize Lebanon is a mixed country, but its' Christian dominance makes it starkly different from other parts of the Middle East.  And within Lebanon, who is a majority depends on who you talk to; there aren't really solid statistics to back whatever case for the post-Civil war majority.

          by Nulwee on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:09:23 PM PDT

          •  India is a secular country

            India is not a Hindu country, it has no official religion.  Nepal was the world's only Hindu country until last year when it was declared a secular state.  There are people in India who would like to make India a Hindu country, but it is not currently so.

            by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:13:45 PM PDT

    •  Nonsense

      The language of the Palestinians is Arabic, thus they are Arabs.  Jordanian Bedouins speak Arabic, thus they are also Arabs.  Lebanese Christians speak Arabic, and thus they are Arabs as well.  What part of this is hard to understand?

      by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:09:37 PM PDT

      •  well..

        I speak English - so am I an Englismna ?
        Arnold speaks German - so is he German ?

        You don't like nuances and grey areas, do you ?

        by cris0000 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:35:40 PM PDT

        •  Uhh, no

          That's because English and German are nationalities.  Arab is not a nationality.  It's a linguistic/cultural grouping.

          by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:38:17 PM PDT

          •  well

            I choose German specifically. Ahnold of course never  was German - like the guy who shall never be named he was born Austrian citizen.

            by cris0000 on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:54:21 PM PDT

•  correct the font

  all bold is obnoxious

  by Carl Nyberg on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:12:19 PM PDT

  •  It raises an interesting question

    Which is more annoying: THE ALL CAPS TITLE or the all bold body?

    The author might have included a poll on the topic.

    by Elwood Dowd on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:30:16 PM PDT

    •  How about

      the lack of spaces between paragraphs?

      by dhonig on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:30:56 PM PDT

    •  All bold body.

      Titles take a second or two to read, max.

      All bold bodies take much longer.

      by lemming22 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:43:12 PM PDT

    •  At least it's not ...

      ALL BOLD AND CAPITALIZED.

      by chicago jeff on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:48:58 PM PDT

•  Why is this all in bold? (n/t)

  by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:21:30 PM PDT

•  To answer your question:

  Among Palestinian refugees I have met, some are descendants of Russians who fled to Palestine in 1917. Others, quite a few, are Armenians and  Circassians whose ancestors settled in Palestine after fleeing persecution in their own lands.  I was surprised to learn that not all Palestinians are Arab, although most are.

  by ybruti on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:21:47 PM PDT

  •  But at least the evangelical tour leader

    recognized that Palestinians exist.  For many years the refugees from Palestine were called "Arab refugees."

    by ybruti on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:58:57 PM PDT

•  Kind of depends on your definitions...

  Technically, Palestinians may not be Arabs. Genetic studies show Palestinians are more closely related to Israeli Jews than to Arabs. This suggests both Jews and Palestinians have the same roots in the region, probably developing from the native Canaanites (for the archaological side of this, pointing at the same conclusion, read Israel Finkelstein's The Bible Unearthed and Jonathan N. Tubb's The Canaanites). Similarly, Egyptians are more closely related to the Berbers of North Africa than to Arabs.

  I should also note that the "Palestinians are Arabs" arguement is sometimes used by right wing Israelis to deny that they have a right to land in the area. To my mind this is as much bunk as the anti-Israel people who try to deny that Jews have roots in the area.

  Now, having said all that, there are two complications: 1. the distinctions among populations are not discontinuous, but are gradual, so where you draw the divisions is sometimes arbitrary (Jews, Palestinians and Arabs are ALL closely related) and 2. there is never cultural or genetic isolation of populations, so of course all of these groups mix not only among eachother, but with other groups.

  Of course, what population Palestinians belong to is largely irrelavent. All evidence points to BOTH Palestinians AND Jews as being descended from natives of the region, and both were given the rights to a nation by the UN.

  by mole333 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:40:39 PM PDT

  •  Isn't an Arab...

    a person who speaks Arabic as a first language?  I don't understand what the relevance of genetics would be.

    by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:21:06 PM PDT

    •  Not necessarily

      Original meaning is someone from the Arabian peninsula. It was clans from Arabia that carried out the initial Islamic conquests and  spread the language. In many areas various clans STILL trace their origins back to Arabia.

      Then again, I did say it depended on your definition!

      by mole333 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:07:32 PM PDT

      •  That's not what it means now

        Certainly in the 6th Century, it would have meant that, but it hasn't for some time.  I just don't think it's accurate to say that it depends on the definition, when there is one valid definition.

        by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 02:15:47 PM PDT

        •  What do you mean?

          There isn't one valid definition! That's like saying there is one valid definition of Jew. It is no disrespect to recognize that there are multiple definitions of an identity. Just because you or the Arab League have one specific definition (Note: the Arab League does not speak for all Arabs!) doesn't mean that is the ONLY valid definition. It is A valid definition. But not the only one.

          Let me make one thing clear: defining Palestinians as just another group of Arabs is used by some to argue that they are immigrants and don't deserve a homeland in the area. I feel that their unique ancestry and identity completely blows that arguement away. So I think their unique identity is a wonderful thing. And some Palestinians feel the same and would resent being called "Arabs."

          by mole333 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:28:49 PM PDT

          •  That's ridiculous

            defining Palestinians as just another group of Arabs is used by some to argue that they are immigrants and don't deserve a homeland in the area.

            I don't see why we should ignore the right definition of Arab just because some lunatics want to make non sequitur arguments.   Arguing that Palestinian Arabs don't deserve a state in Palestine because they speak a language that originally comes from Arabia is absurd and I don't see why we are even talking about absurd arguments.  That's really a problem in the whole Israel/Palestine debate.  There are so many absurd positions held by so many people that over time people start to think that they are all just different equally valid opinions.  They aren't.

            Palestinians are a distinct group of Arabs.  Anyone who denies that is delusional.

            by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 11:00:56 PM PDT

            •  Well...

              Look. Some Palestinians would really not like being lumped in with Arabs and by some very legit definitions they are not Arabs. By your linguistic definition they are. Fine. I have no problem with that. But by other definitions they aren't. And it is silly to argue about it.

              by mole333 on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 03:57:26 AM PDT

              •  Who said Arab...

                is a homogenous group?  Nobody, except for some extremist Israelis with an agenda.

                by ortcutt on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:59:35 PM PDT

  •  Arab League Definition

    "An Arab is a person whose language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic speaking country, who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic speaking peoples"

    -Arab League

    So, the Arab League's definition is linguistic and not genetic.

    by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:29:47 PM PDT

    •  The odd thing is

      That some who would question whether Palestinians are Arab would certainly agree that the Sudan ruling population is Arab, despite many of them being black.  So we see that the linguistic definition's acceptability is based on politics.  

      by weasel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:31:57 PM PDT

  •  And some turn of the century books

    called Jews living in Palestine...Arab Jews!

    by mattes on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:43:18 PM PDT

•  Some people say

  "Some people say" that "Some people say" that Palestinains are not Arabs.

  I know a large chunk of the Non-Arab Israeli population are not crazy about their Arab neighbors but they wouldn't claim they're not Arabs.

  meanwhile...

  The top 2 Headlines over at haaretz are
   
  FM: Israel agrees to talk terms of Palestinian state  

  Abbas: Arab plan offers Israel chance to live in 'sea of peace'  

  At least they haven't given up trying.

  by RobbyMcP on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:41:55 PM PDT

•  I knew someone...

  who had a Palestinian passport.

  She was Jewish.

  by kmiddle on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:03:43 PM PDT

•  perennial victims

  All of these diaries have one common theme...there is never any personal responsibility on the part of the Palentinians.  It is always everyone else's fault or responsibility.  The international community has given them how much?  How much did Arafat steal?  How much have corrupt politicians stolen?  Is the world supposed to support them for life?  They got Gaza...so what did they do with it?  Maybe the U.S. and the first world countries should just have their citizens pay taxes to support all the other people of the world who have been unable to either govern themselves or manage their economy...those who choose war over peace...or ideology over compromise.  Isn't that why we're supposedly in Iraq...to bring peace to warring groups of people...It's sad what will happen to the Iraqis if we leave...but how long are we supposed to make things better when the Arab world foments a violent ideology.  

  The Palestinians have made their own bed...so sad...too bad...but their choice.  They rejected peace in 2000 and on many other occasions.  It doesn't matter how much land they get, it will all turn to sh*t.  Stop blaming the Israelis for their condition...When faced with terrorism and suicide bombing, or an intifada, life gets tough.  

  When are these diaries ever going to put any responsibility on the surrounding Arab states?  Especially those rich Saudis and rich Kuwaitis whom we liberated from Saddam....

  If we want to look for real victims, look at what's happening in Sudan.  

  by lily15 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:05:45 PM PDT

  •  They'll continue to be victims

    until they are all dead. Then we won't have to worry anymore. As long as we're talking taxes, let's stop supporting Israel, too.

    by Elvis meets Nixon on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:31:52 PM PDT

•  One more thing

  I have no sympathy for Hamas, a group that espouses Islam...which in practice in Arab countries, is misogynistic and perpetuates a state of apartheid for women.  I am so tired of progressives supporting peoples who believe in an ideology that makes women second class citizens...an ideology that promotes violence against women.  This craziness and hypocrisy must stop. Women, especially, should look at the ideology they are promoting by taking these positions that ultimately, hurt women.

  And to constantly characterize a country, Israel, that is one of the most progressive countries in the world, where women have equal rights and access, as evil, is to live in an upside down reality.  Further, it is simple minded follower behavior that allows progressives to not question these anti Israel rants. Not dissimilar to right wing follower behavior. Neither make sense.

  by lily15 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:18:10 PM PDT

•  Ignorance & bliss is the main problem in the US

  We don't see what our money and military power are doing, and so too many of us, including myself, have too much peace of mind. Even in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Palestinian territories, where the effects of our money and war are so obvious and so tragic. Not that there's very much bliss in our ignorance, but it helps avoid a lot of pain and confusion.

  My local paper is consumed on its front page with another complete summary of the Anna Nicole Smith story.

  Thanks for informing the visitors to your country.

  by planyourday on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:19:37 PM PDT

•  The issue is Islam

  Not whether Palestinian or Arab.  If the ultimate group in power bases their government on the Koran, the result is the same.  And it is insane for any Western country to support any group or country that makes women second class citizens.  Not all religions are equal..and not all are practiced in a way that gives equality to women.  We should not support any country that oppresses women.  

  by lily15 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:33:13 PM PDT

  •  I guess that includes Us

    or US how ever you want to say it.

    by Elvis meets Nixon on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:39:49 PM PDT

•  Israel supports progressive values

  We should support countries that are democratic and espouse western progressive values.  Anyone who doesn't understand that should spend some time in these authoritarian and/or theological regimes.  There is no moral equivalence. Israel is a democratic, liberal country that practices progressive values.  

  by lily15 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:37:51 PM PDT

  •  By Us

    I meant the United States. I live here.

    by Elvis meets Nixon on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:42:35 PM PDT

  •  No Civil Marriage is Progressive?

    Israel has no civil marriage.  The only way to have a civil marriage recognized in Israel is to have it in another country.  I hardly think that qualifies as progressive.

    by ortcutt on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 11:54:58 PM PDT